CORE4WD XJ Build up

[87B2XLT]

OOOOOPS. Didn't mean to participate in hi-jacking the thread I swear, I had no intentions of doing it, honest! ;D

[CORE 4WD]

What method are you going to use for mounting D44? Factory EB? The steering links will go with it as well to get you going. They're pretty tight but I would go with a Stonecrusher or Bulletproof set up. Mike at Complete Off Road (Dubuque, Ia) sells them for $265. You could also snag a 1 ton set up from PNP (assuming you could find one) and then borrow/buy the reamer and do a TRO as well. Mike also sells those for $289 (the tie rod set up) I believe.
Dave

[87B2XLT]

I have seen several different write-ups for the 44/9" EB to B2 swap and I'm somewhat familiar with the process. I was probably going to enlist some help from people *hint hint* since I know some of it is going to require some fabrication. I'll let you know.

Dave G.

[CORE 4WD]

Come by when I do the swap on mine, alot is the same for your's.

[87B2XLT]

I can do that.... just let me know when. I'll also need address to map and/or directions from Va Beach.... hopefully, my work / duty schedule won't preclude my helping out, etc. *crossess fingers*

[IlovemyYJ]

dave you think you could help me do a remote like that? i amost had my remote line cut when it slid down my hood and my tire got a hold of it, lucky it only tore outter rubber a bit and i was able to get out.

-matt

[CORE 4WD]

Sure! Got mine off EVILBAY, it was $70 shipped. Easy install.

[Chuck]

Dave, very sorry for continuing the threadjack -- more than welcome to fuss at me for it at the meeting tomorrow night. ::grins:: I just want to make certain any info in the thread is complete, even if it's off-topic, in case someone else stumbles across it later in a search.

kernelpanic said:

If you've worked on a 351M / 400M / 429 / 460, you've worked on a Cleveland. They're basically the same engine(s) with only the obvious differences, that I'm aware of. *shrug*

Actually, the similarity is superficial in a lot of ways. The 351C and 351M/400 share cylinder head/water passage style (dry intake manifold), the in-block timing arrangement, bore, rod journal, and a few other little goodies (are they the same distributor? I don't know). The 351C and 400 use the same pistons. However:

• The 351C uses the smallblock bellhousing, where the 351M/400 uses the 385 series bellhousing (372/429/460)
  
• The C is a 9.2" deck block, whereas the M is a 10.3" deck.
  
• The C uses 2.75" mains like the FE series, while the M shares a 3" main diameter with the W and the 385's.
  
• The C's 5.78" rods are the shortest of any of the three 351's, which makes sense since it's also the shortest firedeck of the three. The M has the longest rods, and the best rod ratio of the three.

There are definite similarities, but I'd say it's about like going back and forth between the 302/351W. Lots of things swap, lots don't, and it's a matter of knowing which is which ...

Incidentally, the 352 FE also has the same bore and stroke as all three "351's", all of which are actually 352's at 351.85ci. It uses the FE bellhousing, deck height and rod length just barely shorter than the M (but close!), Cleveland mains (2.75"), a bigger rod journal than any of the other three, and a completely oddball piston height.

[87B2XLT]

Chuck, explain to me this: Why was I able to take a C-6 from a 429 (or 460, one of the two) and bolt it up behind my 351C-2V ... I think you have the 351C and 351W confused as the 351W uses the small block (260, 289, 302..) bellhousing... *shrug* That's my last bit of hi-jack-age on this particular subject

[CORE 4WD]

Yea the C-6 is a normally for big blocks but you can make them fit small ones too. I do believe the C is a big block style though. They came in 78-79 Bronco's (C-6) with 351M. Are we now thoroughly confused? ;D

[87B2XLT]

D'OH. Not really, Dave. Thing is, at that time, we had my 351C, a 351M, a 400, a 429, and 460 sitting in the boneyard behind a friend's house and I don't think I'm mistaken, but, the C-6 we put in my '73 F100 after totalling the 67 my Cleveland was in and the ensuing destruction of the C-4 because of the 35" Gumbos... came off the 429 or 460 *shrug* And, to my knowledge the only difference between a 351C and M were the plants they were produced at ... maybe a few slight others that I may not remember, but as far as most of those aforementioned engines, they are all in the same family of "big-blocks"... the Cleveland is considered a big-block tree-fiddy-wun... sometimes, I wish Ford would have taken GM's lead... doesn't matter what engine it is in a GM, any GM tranny will bolt right up, heh. *shrug*

Heyyy, I thought this was about your XJ, darnit! Oh well, a little off the beaten path, but it's part of the fun, right?

[Deleted]

C-6's fit alot of different vehicles, diesels come to mind too. Mostly big blocks like Dave said, but I have seen with my own eyes a C-6 behind a Windsor. I'd swear I was on a Ford forum now!

[87B2XLT]

Okay... Ford forum it is! Hahahahaha. Anyhow, yes, I believe there are 3 variants of the C-6: 90-degree small block, big block, and FE-block. I can't remember if the FE or small block is the same as the 6-cylinder bolt pattern. The C-4 is the same, however, the C-4's bellhousing can be removed and swapped / interchanged with the C-3 and C-5, if I remember right. There was also the FMX... which is similar to the C-4, I think... but this is all pre-modular block, fuel-injected, newer stuff. Not sure what's behind the Power-Chokes... but I think nowadays you have the A4LD and E4OD (or EAOD?) or whatever.... since most automatic trannys have overdrive....

Anyhow, I think we're all going to get some talking to tomorrow evening about hi-lift'ing, er, hi-jacking the thread... SORRY DAVE!! ;D

[Chuck]

kernelpanic said:

Chuck, explain to me this: Why was I able to take a C-6 from a 429 (or 460, one of the two) and bolt it up behind my 351C-2V ...

If that's the case, then you didn't have a 351C -- you had a second 351M that someone sold to you without knowing what it was, which was very, very common. They're hard to tell apart if you don't know what to look for. I've met a lot of people who swore up and down they had a 351C in their truck, but the C was never available from the factory in any truck. If you had a C, it was swapped in after the fact. Many salesmen encouraged the confusion by claiming the trucks they were selling were 351C's, either out of ignorance (I've known a lot of Ford salesmen, and most are ignorant of what they're selling, though there are exceptions), or out of a combination of desire to capitalize on the 351C's known performance history and knowledge that the two looked the same and most people couldn't tell the difference.

Incidentally, Ford considers the 335 series engines (351C, 351M/400) to be small blocks -- they share the same bore spacing as the 302/351W (and related) smallblocks at 4.380", and all the heads will interchange with a little machinework to adapt the water passages (something Ford did themselves on the Boss 302, which is a beefier 302 block with 351C-4V heads). The FE big blocks use a 4.630 borespacing, and the 385's use a 4.900".

As for the bellhousings:

The 240/300 I6, 221/255/262/289/302, 302 Boss, 351W (two deck heights, early and late), 351C, and early 4.6L modular (first year and a half only, F1AE casting -- I have one in my garage) all share the same bellhousing bolt pattern, with the exception that the early engines in the 221/289 portion of the series have one less bolt. I believe the Canadian Essex 3.8L/4.2L 90* V6, which is actually a 302 minus two cylinders (a 90* V6 is an oddball pattern because it doesn't balance out naturally the way a 60* V6 does), also shares this bellhousing, but I'm not certain because I haven't personally verified it.

The FE series engines (332/352/360/390/406/410/427/428) all share the same bolt pattern, though flywheels differ because some are neutral balance and some are externally balanced.

The remaining 335 series smallblocks (351M/400, same block) and the 385 series (372/429/460) all share a third common bellhousing. I'm about 95% certain the 6.9L IDI diesel also uses this bellhousing. To my knowledge the 7.3L IDI and Power Stroke share a fourth different bellhousing.

core4wd said:

Yea the C-6 is a normally for big blocks but you can make them fit small ones too. I do believe the C is a big block style though. They came in 78-79 Bronco's (C-6) with 351M. Are we now thoroughly confused? ;D

There are at least six different versions of the C-6 housing casting that I know of, possibly eight. Since it's an integral bellhousing, there are three different possible bellhousings (it was used behind the smallblocks, the FE's, and the 385's), and the back half of the casting is different depending on whether it's 2wd or 4wd, which was an option with all three bellhousings. Hence, six possible configurations. Since I'm pretty sure the C6 was also available behind the 7.3L before they went over to the E4OD, that would make for eight.

kernelpanic said:

... but as far as most of those aforementioned engines, they are all in the same family of "big-blocks"... the Cleveland is considered a big-block tree-fiddy-wun... sometimes, I wish Ford would have taken GM's lead... doesn't matter what engine it is in a GM, any GM tranny will bolt right up, heh. *shrug*...

Nope two different families, and only one of them big-block. 335's include the 351C and 351M/400, with different bellhousings. 385 series includes the 372/429/460. Ford differentiates big-block and smallblock by bore spacing, not firedeck height or bellhousing ... hence the only big block in that displacement was the 352FE.

I wish Ford could pick a bellhousing and stick with it too. That statement's not quite true of all of GM, though, just Chevrolet and the GM-branded vehicles. Buick/Olds/Pontiac had its own very different bellhousing ...

fromme said:

C-6's fit alot of different vehicles, diesels come to mind too. Mostly big blocks like Dave said, but I have seen with my own eyes a C-6 behind a Windsor. I'd swear I was on a Ford forum now!

Like I said, I believe there's also a casting for the 7.3L, and the 6.9L uses the 385-style bellhousing. The C6 was very common behind the Windsor in trucks (got one laying in my garage) -- every 351W automatic truck in the 80's is a C6, since they never put the AOD behind the W (engineers knew it would snap like a twig). The non-OD C6 stayed in the 351W trucks until the E4OD came out, and I believe it may have been optional either way for a couple of transition years.

kernelpanic said:

...There was also the FMX... which is similar to the C-4, I think... but this is all pre-modular block, fuel-injected, newer stuff. Not sure what's behind the Power-Chokes... but I think nowadays you have the A4LD and E4OD (or EAOD?) or whatever.... since most automatic trannys have overdrive....

Anyhow, I think we're all going to get some talking to tomorrow evening about hi-lift'ing, er, hi-jacking the thread... SORRY DAVE!! ;D

The C-4 and FMX aren't related, but they were both used in slightly similar things.

The C3 is a light duty transmission, different from the C4 except for the fact that the bellhousings interchanged. The C3 became the A4LD when it was redesigned to add overdrive, then the 4R55, and has lately been replaced with the 5R55 if I'm not mistaken (five speed swap shifter).

The C4 became the C5 for a couple of years in the 80's, very very similar trannies. Then the C4/C5 line died off.

The FMX was heavier duty than the C4 stock for stock, and was used in a lot of late 60's to early 70's performance cars. For instance, the automatic Mach 1's were all FMX cars. I think the lighter duty smallblock Stangs in that era (302) still got the C4, not certain. The FMX basically became the AOD -- they're pretty similar inside as far as the arrangment of all the internals and the power flow are concerned though few of the parts swap. The FMX was an iron case with a removable aluminum bellhousing. I've only personally seen it with a smallblock (302, 351W, 351C) bellhousing (have one with the smallblock bell sitting in my garage if you know anyone looking for one), I have no idea if it ever had either a FE or 385 bellhousing available. I doubt it, since most of those engines got the tougher C6 by default. When the AOD was created off the old FMX, the separate bellhousing went away, and you got a one-piece aluminum case in smallblock pattern only, along with a hollow input shaft with a concentric, smaller solid shaft for lockup overdrive. The AOD became the AOD-E when the electronically controlled valve body was added, and the AOD-E was only available in the new mod motor bellhousing (which is a modified version of the old smallblock bell, with a couple of bolts and dowels moved and a different starter arrangement). The AOD-E became the 4R70W almost immediately after its creation, with the change to a wide ratio gearset, and was first seen in the Mark VIII behind the DOHC 4.6L that later became the Cobra motor. It needs all the gear it can get, and the W first gear is VERY deep for a car tranny.

The C6 was used in pretty much everything heavy duty. The E4OD overdrive tranny, which was only ever used in the late trucks (89 or so and up as an option), is based on the C6 design but only shares some of its parts. It also doesn't share the C6 reputation for reliability. I've rebuilt mine twice so far, and next time I'm throwing it out. the E4OD got vastly improved guts in 95-97, and gained a lot of reliability. It then got reworked and became the 4R100, which was still used behind the Power Stroke until a couple of years ago when they went over to a five speed auto.

That clear things up any? ::grins::

Where questions on most Ford engines, particularly the V8's, are concerned, I'd highly recommend downloading a free copy of the FRPP catalog. It gives basic info on each of the engines, what's interchangeable, all the key dimensions, tips on how to do things like run 335 heads on a 302/351W or vice-versa. It's my first reference when I run into questions like this, and you can trust in its accuracy since it's straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak (as opposed to straight from the horse's ass, which is unfortunately what you get sometimes from me -- sorry!). ;D

Now let's see some XJ pics!

[87B2XLT]

my 351C-2V came out of a '73 Torino GT after the original 352-FE in the '67 F-100 blew to pieces. The engine swap included a tranny swap (C4). Bad luck on my part ended up totalling out the front end of the '67, thus the engine and tranny found a new home in a '73 F100 and subsequent to that, a C-6 that was originally married to a 429 (and a few other pieces and parts as well, i.e. 4-bbl intake) found it's way into my '73. Unfortunately, any photographic documentation of that whole ordeal has long since found it's way to demise. I could be somewhat mistaken, though, it may have been from the 400 -- you have to realize, I was still a teenager at the time and I have slept, drank, and spent countless days and months overseas since then ;D

As far as 335-series heads on a 302.... 302 Boss comes to mind *shrug*. I had a slip-up, admittedly, about 335 series and 385-series. It's been a while since I've really dug that deep into Fords. I think I still have a hardcopy of the FRRP Catalog somewhere amongst my junk...

Anyhow... can't we all just get along? heh. Back to some XJ stuff.... before we REALLY get in trouble ;D